In 1987, five years before his death, we had the good fortune to interview William M. Gaines, longtime publisher of MAD magazine. He was also the son of the man who arguably invented comic books.
Gaines was a dominant figure in 1950s comic book publishing, pushing the medium to its limits with adult tales of horror, adventure and science fiction. The influence of his Entertaining Comics line of titles — for example, Tales of the Crypt – continues today across a range of media.
Entertaining Comics, or “EC,” was founded as Educational Comics by Gaines’ father, Max, who pioneered the first comic books in 1933. As co-publisher of American Comics and partner in DC Comics, he introduced The Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Hawkman. He was also instrumental in launching Superman. Max died in an accident in 1947. His 25-year-old son, William, then took over EC.
Q: What inspired your father to start Educational Comics? Did he really want to educate through comics, or-
A: No, he never — among other things, he had originally been a high school principal. He graduated from the Indiana State Normal School, which is a school of education. In those days it was a two-year course. And my mother did, too. And then by a strange coincidence – because they barely knew each other in college – he ended up a principal in a small Pennsylvania town where my mother was a teacher, and that’s how they met. So he was always interested in education, yes.
So when he had the disagreements with his partners up at DC, he said one day, “Either you buy me out or I’ll buy you out.” And they said, “Okay, we’ll buy you out.” So he sold his whole business to them and started anew with Picture Stories from the Bible, and then he went into Picture Stories from Science, American History, World History, and then he got killed and that was as far as it went.
He had also then started EC Comics, Educational Comics. He was publishing things like Tiny Tot Comics and Land of the Lost, which was a radio program of his day. Real funny animal type stuff. When he got killed . . . I was brought down . . . taken over . . .
I also was a teacher. I had studied to be a chemistry teacher. So I never taught. Instead I became a publisher, and I got rid of the Educational Comics and the Teeny Tot (sic) comics and all the other junk that was costing a fortune, and started putting out Westerns, love comics.
We were putting out love comics, and we had a page of letters, which we made up. Terrible frauds! We made up all these letters and names of them. We had in one love comic, we were Amy, in Advice from Amy. In another love comic we were angry at Advice from Amy. And then we started a Western love comic. Think of that! And we were Chuck, in Advice from Chuck!
(Laughs) And we would sit there at the typewriter and I’m typing these absurd letters and never answering them! (Laughs) And we would do this for every issue of every love comic we ever put out.
Q: What inspired you to start the horror line?
A: Well, we hated this crap we were doing. I think Al (Feldstein) suggested, he said, “You know, I remember these wonderful (radio drama) programs from my youth: Lights Out, Suspense, The Witches Tale. Why don’t we put out some comics with that sort of story in them?” Al wanted to put out suspense-type comics with logical endings. I had been a reader of Wonder Comics, Astounding Comics, Amazing Comics and Weird Tales.
(Gaines likely meant Amazing Stories, Astounding Stories, etc., and other cheaply-printed “pulp” short story magazines, not comics titles, as he next notes. – ed.)
These were all pulps. I grew up on that stuff, and I loved that kind of junk. When you tell a good suspense story, I didn’t want a logical ending. I wanted a stupid supernatural ending. If you marry somebody who comes back to life dripping flesh, that’s my kind of stuff. Vampires and werewolves and ghouls. That’s what I was brought up on. And we got a thesaurus, and we first came up with The Crypt of Terror.
We changed the name; the wholesalers screamed. And after we had The Crypt of Terror, we said — we went around — we went to the thesaurus and said, “The crypt could be a vault, terror could be horror,” so we came up with The Vault of Horror. And then we went on a third, so we went back to the thesaurus and we found that a synonym for “vault” and “crypt” is a “haunt.” We think of “haunt” as a verb, but there was a word, a noun, so we came up with The Haunt of Fear. So we had our three horror titles. I think today they’re unmatched, with the horrible, terrible stuff we came up with, out of our fiendish little minds.
Q: If you had known all those years ago, or if again today you would have to go before a Senate subcommittee to defend horror comics, do you think you would defend them as intensely and for the same reasons?
A: I’d defend them even more intensely! I would say, “Go to any movie that’s shown on a Saturday morning anywhere in this country, and you will watch something that is so bad that, compared to this, my stuff is like fairy tales!” And it is. The horror films today aren’t by me. The whole thing is absurd. I think kids love this crap! They sure loved it in my day, and they still love it today!
Q: When MAD started coming out, were you — this is #2, with the hex story (“Hex” told of a baseball pitcher who was given the evil eye. – ed.) – was that intended to make fun of your own comics, or-
A: Oh, sure!
Q: -or was this Kurtzman’s-
A: Well! We started out MAD with the idea of making fun of everything we published. We published love comics, we published horror comics, we published science fiction comics and we published suspense comics. And that’s what MAD made fun of in the beginning. And then we found that was too confining. We should make fun of everything in the world.
So Harvey expanded it to business ethics, television, movies. Anything else he could think of to take on. It just moved on from there. When, as a result of the Senate Subcommittee hearings, we eventually had to give up just about everything I published except for MAD, I just – first, I tried a bunch of other comics, such as Aces High and Valor. Then a comic called Psychoanalysis, a comic called M.D., and a lot of stuff that was way ahead of its time. Which were complete failures.
Q: These were not Picto Fiction books? (A line of heavily illustrated short story magazines published by Gaines.)
A: No. After these failed, we tried Picto Fiction, and they failed, too. The reasons these things failed isn’t because they weren’t good. They were good. But, by this time, all the wholesalers in the whole country were so mad at me, that anything I published, they wouldn’t put out on the stands. So if I would publish 300,000 copies, I would get back about 280,000, because no one would ever get a chance to by them. So I quickly went bankrupt, and that was the end of that.
Except for MAD. MAD saved my tail, because this was the one thing — we weren’t able to publish (anything else).
Oh, they complained about MAD in the beginning, too! But I changed MAD from a comic into a 25-cent black and white, much like it is now. I cannot destroy the myth that I changed it to avoid the Code (the industry self-regulating Comics Code – ed.). This is not true. I wouldn’t have had enough sense, and I was too stubborn to prevent (Code restrictions). I changed it for an entirely different reason.
Harvey Kurtzman, who was the editor, had gotten a much more lucrative offer from somebody else (Pageant magazine; a year later, Playboy publisher Hugh Hefner hired Kurtzman to edit Trump, a short-lived humor magazine – ed.).
The only reason I could convince him to stay and not leave was to offer to change MAD from a comic to a magazine, which was something he wanted to do years before, and I wouldn’t let him. So he changed MAD into roughly the format it is today: 64 pages, black and white, sold for a quarter. And it took off. And it was out of the Code, because it was no longer a comic book. So it accomplished that (getting around censors), but that’s not why I did it. And that’s what saved it.
Q: As a comic book, MAD accepted advertising. Why did you decide not to accept it as a slick?
A: Well, MAD accepted advertising in the old days, because we sold the entire group. Until the very end, when we were really desperate for money, I only had three ads in any given comic. This was completely different from the average comic today. Comics have 10, 12 pages in a 32 page book. It’s almost like the advertisements have taken over. I never wanted ads.
Q: I’ve seen the reprints, but I don’t know what it first looked like as a slick. Was it radically different from its format as a comic book?
A: It was much like its format today. MAD #24 looked very much like today’s MAD, only it was 64 pages instead of 28. It had that rim, which you could call that old MAD rim of drawings around the edge (of the cover). Very ornate figures of a man around the edge.
Q: When did you get rid of the sub-title, “Humor in a Jugular Vein”?
A: Oh, right at the point. I don’t recall that “Humor in a Jugular Vein” was in the MAD figurehead, or if it was, it was obscurely somewhere on the side panel or something.
See, all the EC comics – as you can see – had roughly the same format. We had something around the edge. We originally proposed – we sat down, myself and my four editors – and I said, “Let’s do a humor comic.” Now the reason for this was – and this is the real story – Feldstein was doing seven comics every two months. And Kurtzman was doing two. Neither of these persons were on salary. I paid them so much per magazine for editing, so much for writing and so much for drawing. And Al was doing seven and Harvey was doing two.
As almost any college can figure out, Feldstein was making three and a half times as Kurtzman. This made Kurtzman very unhappy! But Kurtzman was very slow. I said, “Harvey!” – he was doing war books at the time. He was researching everything. If a story had submarines, he went down in a submarine. That kind of a thing. It was very time consuming, (and) they weren’t selling as well as the horror books.
So I said, “Harvey, I can’t raise your rates. I can’t afford it. Why don’t you just put out a third comic every two months, make it a humor comic, there’ll be no research, we’ll slug it in between the other two, and your income will go up 50 percent. And that is the only reason there is a MAD magazine today.
Q: He didn’t foresee it as a big seller?
A: No. No. You know, (at the time) I had nine magazines, so now I have 10. So he did that. Of course, Harvey being Harvey, it took him as long to do MAD as it took him to do a war magazine! (Laughs) So he had to drop one of the war magazines from then on, and his income never did go up that way, so we had to devise another device (to raise Kurtzman’s pay). But that’s why there was a MAD.
If Harvey had been faster, we probably never would have published the humor magazine. Which is a strange reason for having created a multi-million dollar magazine, but that’s how it happened.